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J.
Member
Posts: 2

I know there’s more than one contradiction in AA’s program. Recently, I’ve tried to voice my concerns over the lack of a solid stance the people in the groups in my area tend to have on working the program. Often I’ve heard “take what works and leave the rest” from many people who, I feel, were just frankly tired of hearing controversial topics from me.

The Big Book states: “Our book is meant to be suggestive only” (pg. 164). Yet, “…half-measures availed us nothing” (pg. 59). Which is it?

I know there are more. Has anyone else made comparisons like this?

 

September 9, 2013 at 2:27 PM Flag Quote & Reply

The Librarian
Member
Posts: 171

Ya, I have but I have found that deconstructing the text and the sayings always lead to the same answer - they are trying to make you doubt yourself so they can control you.  It doesn't matter what you say - you are wrong.

 

GG

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September 9, 2013 at 9:03 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Live_free_or_die
Administrator
Posts: 851

Yep.  The entire AA program and the AA literature is rife with contradictions.


This website is a searchable database of the big book and the 12&12.

http://www.164andmore.com/

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Pro Empowerment - Engage & Enable


September 10, 2013 at 12:50 AM Flag Quote & Reply

tumbleweed
Member
Posts: 52

Hi all, hope your deprogramming works for you.

 

Im currently "debating" the program with a couple of steppers on a forum, it would be  nice to gather a list of all the contradictions and cognitive dissonance the AA-books consist of.

 

The one J states above is classic of course...you have to bury your head deep in the sand in order to not see that one...

 

Maybe we could create a thread that shows all these inconsistencies of the program, here on this forum, would be a nice resource to have when debating with steppers....maybe you could help them too see how flawed and transparent their "gawdsent" little program in actuality is...

--

Sometimes, u just gots to gets ur freak on...

September 10, 2013 at 6:04 AM Flag Quote & Reply

The Librarian
Member
Posts: 171

I dunno, I'm ususally up for a good fight but there seems to me nothing more than a *poof* when it comes to outrage over the program.  I think a lot of people get really hurt but that they don't want the hurt to continue so just walk away.  

Maybe there is something in that?  Forget it an move on?  I have found that even this forum has been quite slow.... incredibly slow - given how many people there are in both our countries.  231 members is not alot of people.

Perhaps this is something to be considered?  So why is it?  Why can't even this forum produce vigourous talk on the ills of aa? 

 

I know that this forum is difficult to use because it keeps timing out, but that is not the only reason for sure....

 

GG

 

GG

 

 

 

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September 10, 2013 at 8:08 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CthulaAnne
Member
Posts: 11

I think people who don't feel like they need AA don't want to spend a lot of time thinking about AA. It is a snake oil. People find better ways to live and forget about it.

I was never deeply involved in AA and have so much distance from it that I have a lot of trouble relating to some of the outrage over the program.

What IS outrageous, to me, is that AA is all we are offering people who need help quitting drugs. It's a stupid little program, but I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't clogging up the system, validating charlatans and predators, and preventing people from getting quality help.

Because the forums I have found seem geared toward people who are emotionally driven to speak out against AA, others with less invested in the program might not feel welcome.

I think any community or movement needs a healthy range of involvement for it to thrive. Zealots turn people away and drown out more moderate voices.

I have enjoyed the opportunity to stand up and be counted as someone who beat addiction without the steps, in case someone out there is feeling discouraged, and I love seeing our numbers, but I can't say I will be sticking around.

September 10, 2013 at 2:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply

The Librarian
Member
Posts: 171

Hi CthulaAnne,  Thanks for the response.  You make really great points. What touched me was your point that it was 'preventing people from getting quality help'.    Sooo true.  LIke I have seen multiple videos, other programs refer people to aa, but not the other way around. 

 

 

You are right about the rage thing.....  that is why I went looking for other info about aa... but it was my rage that finaly set me free of aa by making me strong enough to leave and say no I won't take this any longer.

 

I also think this forum has a problem with timing out too soon and that may be preventing easy dialog.  I have noticed that including the signature seems to help.

 

GG

 

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September 10, 2013 at 7:52 PM Flag Quote & Reply

CthulaAnne
Member
Posts: 11

I agree with the timing out. It's weird. I am not knocking the rage, either. It is a lifesaving emotion. 

September 10, 2013 at 9:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

The Librarian
Member
Posts: 171

Hi CthulaAnne,  Thanks for saying rage is a life saving emotion - cause that is not something you hear every day.  It saved me from 'doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result'.  Hahahahaha.......  sorry..... just had to use their own saying against them..... hahhaaahhha.

 

GG

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September 10, 2013 at 10:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

CthulaAnne
Member
Posts: 11

Jeez, I was furious FOR you when I read your post.

I have my own controlling extended family, who sent me to a weirdly AA influenced behavioral treatment center as a kid, so I know what it's like to suppress your anger and fault yourself for it. It's like trying to get out of a Chinese finger trap. If you just relax and let yourself have your feelings, you're free. The anger's out there, and you get out of the shitty situation, and, eventually it stops pissing you off so much.

My experience, anyway. You have every reason to be pissed until the next century, but you probably won't be, because you handled it.

September 10, 2013 at 10:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Live_free_or_die
Administrator
Posts: 851

I have checked with the web hosting service and they are aware of the issue of timing out.  Unfortunately it doesn't look like they are in any hurry to fix it.  I was on the help forum and this timing out issue has apparentlt been going on for a couple of months.  Hopefully the bug will be fixed soon.


Many people are exposed to AA and leave.  we have seen posters here on Expose AA come and go, and I hope they are moving on with their lives to better things.  This site is for people that want to discuss the ridiculous program of XA and 12 step programs and to help in deprogramming from the billshit.


I myself was never a member of AA, I only went to a small number of open meetings as a result of DUI.


I am here and continue to support this site because it is my belief that the XA/12 steps are a harmful program that should be discontinued and replaced with programs that are helpful.  I have a firm conviction and belief that the program of AA interferes with peoples lives in a number of ways and that some people even kill themselves over the absurd preachings of the AA program.


And yes, rage against the machine can be an excellent tool to help with one's emotions.   

--

Pro Empowerment - Engage & Enable


September 11, 2013 at 6:17 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CthulaAnne
Member
Posts: 11

Oh, honestly, I would like to stay, too. I was just feeling alienated, yesterday, because I got a few responses that I misinterpreted on the other board, and I thought I was in the wrong places.

 

I still remember getting out of rehab and walking around a strange city in the middle of the night. I met this doctor, who looked like a guy who would play a doctor on t.v., and I have no idea why he spent a half hour talking to me about his own past drug use and how AA was overrated. It was amazing. After hearing the opposite for months, it gave me some encouragement I really needed.

 

The whole experience seems like a dream, now. I, sometimes, wonder if he was some kind of serial killer, but I really appreciated what he did for me, and I'd like to do that for other people, if they are questioning their ability to make it outside of AA.

 

I appreciate you being here, LFOD. Even though I claim my distance, it feels great to learn I am not alone, and I have made some small changes since reading these boards that I am very proud of. It's just very uplifting to know that I'm not some fluke, so thank you.

 

 

September 11, 2013 at 12:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

The Librarian
Member
Posts: 171

I too am very grateful for hearing peoples opinions.  I think that any for of objective scrutiny is always rigorously discouraged in aa. 

 

It's like being in an abusive relationship - you are simply to do as you are told and not to question anything. I truly feel like all my artistic self and academic self has been opressed.  

 

When I was in university there was no tollerance of sweeping statements that were not backed up with fact.  I was told in aa 'Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?'. 

 

How's that for crazy?  Seriously.... what does that mean???  You are wrong and unhappy when you are right (in pointing out the glaring issues with the aa program).  

 

Anyways.... all this has made me a firm believer that no recovery program should be run by 'volunteers'.  There should always be a properly educated facilitator and all such programs should have some form of govt regulation.

 

Just my two cents...

 

GG

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September 11, 2013 at 6:17 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Fallenangel
Member
Posts: 6

J. at September 9, 2013 at 2:27 PM

I know there’s more than one contradiction in AA’s program. Recently, I’ve tried to voice my concerns over the lack of a solid stance the people in the groups in my area tend to have on working the program. Often I’ve heard “take what works and leave the rest” from many people who, I feel, were just frankly tired of hearing controversial topics from me.

The Big Book states: “Our book is meant to be suggestive only” (pg. 164). Yet, “…half-measures availed us nothing” (pg. 59). Which is it?

I know there are more. Has anyone else made comparisons like this?

 

Being in AA for 30 years, I was guilty of answers such as this.  I was a "rebel" of sorts in AA.  I did not do everything by the Big Book, and I stayed sober for most of those 30 years.  I never picked up the big book and read it until 3 years before I left AA.  I didn't do the steps the way the Big Book says either.  I didn't believe in it.  I had a great sponsor for ten of those years and asked her if I should do the steps the "official" way and she said "We have talked everyday for years, there isn't anything you haven't told me, there is no need to do it officially".  SO it is BS that you have to do everything by the Book.  But there are many control freaks who want to make you do things by the Book and control your life.  When I started reading the book, and then started hearing the horrible stories about Bill W.,  this is when I had enough of AA.  There are some real freaky big book thumpers that are like little dictators.  Of  course, because I wasn't your typical AA member who did everything I was told, I wasn't "IN" and that was hurtful to be shrugged by other women in the program.  The women were nasty and I never kept one friendship in AA for very long.  They only used me for rides.  I guess I did my own thing for years and finally just realized one day there is nothing there for me.  I never shared towards the end.  My life is not perfect, I have a lot of medical issues.  Nobody in AA wants to hear that, or they will tell you that you don't work a good program.  (that's why I'm sick).  They say they are your friends, but believe me when you are DOWN AND OUT they disappear.

September 29, 2013 at 12:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Fallenangel
Member
Posts: 6

The Librarian at September 10, 2013 at 10:08 PM

Hi CthulaAnne,  Thanks for saying rage is a life saving emotion - cause that is not something you hear every day.  It saved me from 'doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result'.  Hahahahaha.......  sorry..... just had to use their own saying against them..... hahhaaahhha.

 

GG

There has been many sayings that I am using now.  My book is called "What  Happened" and the theme is what is was like, what happened, and what it is like now, out of AA.

September 29, 2013 at 12:24 PM Flag Quote & Reply

itisi
Member
Posts: 32

Well I read the BB a few times, did the steps a few times, had sponsees, worked as literature person, blah.... nausiating. 

Alot of folks on here weren't brainwashed so long or hurt so much. May be that's why. I would walk away and never look back except that recovery from the cult is a process that is taking my time up! Anger and hostility are very present. So may be it's us totally pissed of folks who are on here the most.

How about "Think, think, think"? Iol

September 29, 2013 at 7:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply

The Librarian
Member
Posts: 171

I'm starting to pass the point of being completely pissed off. Frankly I'm enjoying the deconstructing of aa. I feel the more we talk about it rationally, the more people will know to avoid it and the less people will go or be sent there.

 

GG

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September 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM Flag Quote & Reply

itisi
Member
Posts: 32

I think we have a long way to go so stick around, pleeze!  

I'm not so angry as I once was until I notice damage I didn't see before. It is fun being a paricipant in the deconstructing of aa. That's why I wish this site was more attended. But it's a start and I like it.

September 29, 2013 at 8:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

The Librarian
Member
Posts: 171

Ya I like it too.  But I don't like the timing out thing.  I was thinking of starting a new website that doesn't have this issue.  It's annoying.  

 

But yes I like talking about aa.  I don't think my experience there is something that I should forget.  If someone had posted like this when I joined 22 years ago, I might have been more fully informed.  I might have chosen a different method of recovery.  If folks like us just walk away and say nothing, some poor folk will never know the difference.  They will never hear an alternative point of view other than the one presented by aa.

 

GG

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September 29, 2013 at 8:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply

itisi
Member
Posts: 32

Exactly. AA, 12 steps, need exposed over and over, and kept current about it too, so new people have more of a choice. I was desparate and sick, and quite vulnerable. 

September 29, 2013 at 9:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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